The Narrow Path 08/06/2026

Steve Gregg: Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we're live for an hour each weekday afternoon. We're taking your calls as we always do. You can call in with questions about the Bible or the Christian faith for us to discuss on the air, or you can call with your complaints or disagreements with something you may have heard from the host. We welcome all of those kinds of responses. The number to call is 844-484-5737. That's 844-484-5737. I want to announce again that at the end of this month, just for about a weekend, I'm going to be speaking in a variety of places up north of where I live in Oakhurst, California, Clovis, California. These areas are not on the main routes that I usually take, but I do have friends there and I've spoken in those places before. We've got a few speaking engagements up in that area the last week of this month. One thing I could say is that I think some other meetings may be in the works in the area. I don't know, we haven't got anything else confirmed. If you are in that area and have a church or group that you'd like me to speak in, feel free to get in touch because once I make a drive up that far, I don't mind doing a few more meetings. So feel free to get in touch with us and we'll be glad to accommodate your desires there. That's all I have to announce about that. There's some other travels I've got coming up in the following few months, but we'll save for later that. If you ever want to know where I'm going to be speaking in your area or elsewhere, you can always go to our website, thenarrowpath.com, and look under the link that says Announcements and we'll have everything posted there. All right, we're going to go to the phone lines and talk first of all to Anthony in Rolla, Missouri. Welcome.
Anthony: Hi, Steve. Thanks for taking my call. My question comes out of Jeremiah 33 and verses 14 through basically the end of the chapter. It says in 14, "Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord, "that I will perform that good thing which I have promised to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah." I believe that promise is the promise of the kingship through the line of David because the next two verses say, "In those days and at that time, I will cause to grow up to David a branch of righteousness. He shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth." I'm assuming that refers to Jesus, but the next verses down in verse 17, it says, "For thus says the Lord: David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, nor shall the priests, the Levites, lack a man to offer burnt offerings before me." It kind of repeats that further down and compares that with God's covenant with day and night. If that can be broken, then the covenant of the David and the Levites could be broken. My question's more about the Levites. I understand that the branch of righteousness is Jesus and that promise of David ultimately points to Jesus, but this includes here the Levites offering grain offerings as well.
Steve Gregg: The offering of grain offerings and so forth is a type and a shadow of spiritual sacrifices. In the Old Testament, all the temple rituals were a type and a shadow of spiritual temple rituals, which the New Testament identifies as taking place. We offer up spiritual sacrifices, it says in 1 Peter 2:5. We are a spiritual temple, several places in the New Testament tell us. It's true that whenever this is spoken of in the Old Testament, it uses the language of Old Testament worship simply because that's what's familiar to the readers. But the idea of worship, he describes it in the terms that were practiced in their own day even though something else is intended. For example, in Malachi chapter 1 and verse 11, it says, "From the rising of the sun to its going down, my name shall be great among the Gentiles. In every place," meaning among where the Gentiles are, "incense shall be offered to my name, a pure offering, for my name shall be great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts." Now, it's talking about Gentiles worshipping God, which is true in the church. And he says, "In every place, incense will be offered to my name." Well, while there are some Christian congregations that do offer incense, this is not referring to literal incense. Even in the Psalms, David says, "Let my prayer be to you, Lord, like incense." And in the book of Revelation, it says that the 24 elders in heaven are offering up incense, which is the prayers of the saints. So, you know, it talks about incense, but it's incense in the Old Testament ritual. But in its fulfillment in Christ, it's the spiritual counterpart. In other words, he's saying in Malachi, people all over the world, not just the Jews in Israel, but believers among the Gentiles everywhere will be worshipping God in terms that the Jews in Malachi's day associated only with Israel's doing so. The idea is the inclusion of Gentiles, but it uses language of the old order because that's what was familiar. Now, in Isaiah chapter 66, it's talking about Gentiles coming in also. And it says in verse 18, this is the last chapter of Isaiah, "For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all the nations and tongues and they shall see my glory." Again, this is the Gentiles coming to know Christ. He says, "I will set a sign among them and those among them who escape I will send to the nations," that is the faithful remnant of Israel will go out and evangelize the nations as they did in the book of Acts and still do, "to Tarshish and Pul," gives all these ancient names of places that don't exist anymore, they stand for just Gentile nations in general. At the end of verse 19, "The coastlands afar off who have not heard my fame nor seen my glory and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles." So this is the Gentile evangelism which took place especially through Paul and his companions initially and then to others. And it says, "And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the Lord out of all nations." So the brethren, the believers from all nations are going to be brought to the Lord as an offering to him. Now, of course, not literally something to be offered on a sacrifice, although that's the language that is used. Paul quotes this verse, or I should say alludes to it more like, about his own ministry evangelizing Gentiles. In Romans 15:16, he says, "that I might be a minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God that the offering of the Gentiles," meaning the offering up of the Gentiles as a sacrifice, "might be acceptable and sanctified by the Holy Spirit." Now, almost any Bible will have a note next to that verse mentioning Isaiah chapter 66, where it says the Gentiles will be an offering to the Lord. Paul sees that as fulfilled in his ministry of evangelizing Gentiles. And then it's going to say in Isaiah 66, "And I will take some of them," that is some of these converts, in verse 21, "I will also take some of them for priests and Levites, says the Lord." Okay, so he's talking about Gentiles coming into Christ, which has been going on for the past 2,000 years and that's what it's referring to. And it says, "Some of them I'll take for priests and Levites." By that, I think he means instead of priests and Levites, or in the place of. Now, of course, we know that all Gentile converts are priests of God. We are a kingdom of priests and we are apparently in the same sense the new Levites. Now, we should when Jeremiah says, you know, the Levites will never lack a man, that's in the verse you brought up in Jeremiah 33:18, "nor shall the priests, the Levites lack a man to offer burnt offerings before me." It's like these other passages, it's using burnt offerings, grain offerings as what the Jews offered in the Old Covenant. But this has its fulfillment in the New Covenant and we know that because in verse 16 it says it's talked about the Messiah. It says, "In his days, Judah will be saved." Well, Christ comes and the faithful remnant of Judah have been saved and Gentiles too. "And Jerusalem will dwell in safety." That is, of course, according to Paul, the spiritual Jerusalem in Hebrews also says that. "And this is the name by which he will be called: The Lord Our Righteousness." Now, that statement, that's Jehovah Tsidkenu. That statement's also found in Jeremiah 23, I think it's 5 and 6 or thereabouts. Another Messianic prophecy. Both of them are talking about the coming of Christ the first time when he came. He is the salvation of his people and so as a result, one of the results that many of the prophets speak of is that Gentiles will also come to the Messiah and they will be included with the Jews. They will be as involved as Levites and priests were in the worship of God and the language of Old Covenant worship is used in many, many passages. I showed you Malachi, showed you Isaiah, now we're here in Jeremiah. There can be little doubt that this is talking about the Messianic age that Christ has inaugurated. Because it says in verse 15 of the passage you mentioned, Jeremiah 33, "In those days and at that time I will cause to grow up to David a branch of righteousness." Now, this is very clearly a reference to Christ who's also called Jehovah Tsidkenu in the next verse. "And he shall execute justice and righteousness in the earth." That's exactly what Jesus came to do and has been doing ever since he came. His kingdom is a kingdom of justice and righteousness. Not everybody's in it, and those who are not in it are not executing justice or righteousness. But those who follow him as king do. And by the way, if someone says, "Well, I know some Christians who don't," well, then they're not following him as king. If you follow Jesus as king, you do what he said and you'll be practicing justice and righteousness. People have been doing that for the past 2,000 years and then there's fake Christians who've been not doing that, which kind of makes it look like it never happened. But no, you'll always find among the true Christians they are practicing justice and righteousness and that's because they follow the King who is named Jehovah Tsidkenu, the Lord our righteousness. But these are all, I mean, this is very typical of Old Testament prophecies about the kingdom of the Messiah and the idea that a branch of David will grow up. You know, this is actually said to be fulfilled in Luke. Let me turn over there. I believe it's Luke chapter 1 and I believe it's Zechariah's words when John the Baptist was born. Let me see if I can find this quickly here. Okay, let's see. He's not the one who mentions David here, but Mary does, I believe. One of these early, maybe it's Simeon. I'll check and see if it's Simeon. In these early chapters of Luke, there's quite a few prophecies given by different people when John was born, when Jesus was born, and they mention that the promise is fulfilled and they specifically mention that God has raised up salvation in the house of his servant David. Well, I'm scanning here, I'm looking for it. I don't have the... there's so many of these poems that are in this section. Okay, I'm not finding the one, but we do know that in the book of Acts, Peter said that the promises to David that one would sit on his throne have been fulfilled by Christ being raised from the dead. That's kind of the centerpiece of Peter's sermon on Pentecost in Acts chapter 2. He says, "Men and brethren," verse 29, Acts 2:29, "let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried and his tomb is with us to this day." Now, before I go further, the promise that was made to David was that when he is asleep with his fathers, namely in his tomb, God would raise up one of his seed to reign. So Peter's beginning by saying, "Okay, conditions prevail that were supposed to prevail." The raising up of David's seed is supposed to happen while he's sleeping with his fathers. Which by the way, is the opposite of what premillennialists say. Premillennialists say this is going to happen in the millennium, but David won't be sleeping with his fathers. He'll be raised from the dead before the millennium if there's a millennium. So I mean, no, this can't be referring to that. Peter points out, "Well, you know, when David sleeps with his fathers, this Messiah's supposed to come. Well, David is sleeping with his fathers. His tomb is with us to this day." "Therefore, being a prophet," he says in verse 30, "and knowing that God had sworn with an oath that of the fruit of his body according to the flesh he would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he foreseeing this spoke concerning the resurrection of Christ." So he says David foresaw the resurrection of Christ in speaking about the promise that God would raise up the Messiah from David's seed. So he's saying Jesus' resurrection is the fulfillment of that. And one other thing. My wife did look things up for me. In the very passage I was searching, I didn't see it, my eye passed right over it in Luke 1 I mentioned, Zechariah's prophecy, Luke 1:69. I was looking at this, but I didn't see it. He says in verse 68-69, Zechariah says, "Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemed his people." So this is a past tense, this has happened now. "And has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David." Okay, the Jeremiah prophecy said God will cause a branch of righteousness to rise up from David, and Zechariah says that's what God has done. That's what God's doing here now. And of course, in verse 16 of Jeremiah, it says, "And in his days, Judah will be saved." Well, the remnant of Judah came to Christ and were saved. That's what the Messiah came about. So in other words, you have to kind of compare any given prophecy with numerous other passages that speak on the same subject. And if someone says, "Well, it shouldn't be so complicated," well, you can make it real simple and you just won't understand. That's a possibility. But we could complain to God when we get there and say, "Why'd you make it so complicated?" The truth is, what's complicated is that the prophets wrote in poetry and they alluded to things sometimes symbolically and they wrote about things that are natural which are fulfilled in the spiritual. And you know, this does make it a little complicated. But the thing is, what makes it easier to figure out and decipher is that all the prophets spoke the same way about the same things and then the New Testament authors quoted them and gave us their interpretation. So that's what we... so it takes a little work. But you know, God never indicated that the truth is available to those who are only casually interested in it. You know, he said, "If you search for me with all your heart, you'll find me." And the same thing kind of is true of the truth. The Pharisees and the scribes and the rabbis didn't see it. They knew these verses, but they hadn't... they didn't have it worked out and they missed it. But Jesus and the apostles explained it and the Holy Spirit did through prophecies like that of Zechariah and others. So anyway, this prophecy, like so many others, is a Messiah prophecy. And as far as Levites are concerned, you know, let's look at it this way. What he says is the Levites will not lack a man to stand before me. Okay, let's assume that the Bible is true in the New Testament saying that all believers in Christ are now priests and we offer up spiritual sacrifices. That's something that all Christians do. Have any people of the tribe of Levi become Christians? I think so. In fact, I've known some. I had some Christian friends whose last name were Cohen. The word Cohen means priest, they're from the Levitical line. And they became Christians and they became priests of the Christian sort, not Catholic priests, but of the kingdom of priests. Every Christian's a priest. So God does not lack a man among the Levites to offer. But there's a lot of people besides Levites because Isaiah said he's going to take some of the Gentiles that are brought in and make them like Levites too. So what we have to do when we understand these prophecies is that they do use the language of Judaism and Jewish ritual and Jewish temple and that kind of thing and the New Testament writers take those things and they apply them universally to all who are in Christ. We are the temple, we are the priesthood, we are the new Levites and so forth. And Christ is the King who sits on the throne of David. So the prophecy is fulfilled in Christ.
Anthony: Okay, all right. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
Steve Gregg: Appreciate your call, Anthony. Nick from Lake Forest, California, welcome to the Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
Nick: Hello, hello, hi Steve. Hello, sir. Listen, please, it's something I am confused big time and I'd like to ask you because yes, please, you say when the Lord Jesus is coming, those who going up, they're going to die, correct? That's what I heard you saying.
Steve Gregg: Wait, wait, who's going to die?
Nick: Again, when somebody called you they asked you about the people they're going up and you told them they're going up to die, to die.
Steve Gregg: You mean those who are going up in the rapture? Is that what you're talking about?
Nick: Yeah, that's what to my understanding, those they're going to leave and go up, they're going up to die.
Steve Gregg: No, not at all, not at all going up to die. No, the Bible... Paul says we shall not all die. He said all sleep, but he means die. He says some... yeah, those who have died will rise first, then those who have not died will not die but will be caught up alive to meet the Lord in the air. So you misheard me.
Nick: Yeah, but my question again is because you said two, three, four times the last six months when some another gentleman or sister, a lady called you please, those they're going up, it's two and one going up and they're two workers someplace. Those they're going up, they're going up to die.
Steve Gregg: I hear you, let me clarify that. You're talking about the times when Jesus said two men will be sleeping in one bed, one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be working at the mill, one will be taken and the other left. Two men will be working in the field, one will be taken. And you have always heard that the one who's taken is the one who's going up in the rapture. I mean, that's an easy mistake to make because a lot of people preach that. They say, "Okay, the one that's taken is the Christian who goes up in the rapture." And that the one who's left is the non-Christian who is left behind to go through tribulation. This is part of the dispensational way of looking at things and it's certainly taught so widely I can't blame you for making those assumptions. But what you've heard me say that surprised you is that I say those who are taken are the ones who are killed. Now, since you've already assumed that the ones who are taken are the ones who are raptured, you're thinking that I said when a person is raptured, they're killed. No, you've got that backward. I don't say that. I say that when one is taken, they are not raptured. They are killed. The word taken means killed in that context. How do I know? Because Jesus said in Matthew 24, "It's going to be like the days of Noah. They ate and drank, they were given in marriage, until the flood came and took them all away," meaning killed them. In fact, the parallel in Luke 17 says, "the flood came and destroyed them all." But in Matthew's gospel it says, "the flood came and took them." So the ones who are taken, that's just a way of saying they were killed in the judgment of the flood. And Jesus said, "And so it'll be when I come. One will be taken and the other left." That the ones who are taken are the ones who are killed in the judgment. And the ones who are left are the Christians who survive and they're not judged. You know, it says in Psalm 91, "a thousand shall fall at your side and 10,000 at your right hand, but it will not come near you. Only with your eyes shall you behold and see the reward of the wicked." Now he's saying the righteous who have made the Lord their trust, who have hidden under the shelter of his wing, they're the ones who will see the wicked in close proximity at your side falling dead and you won't... you'll be spared because you're one of God's people. So what Jesus is describing is the destruction of the wicked even though they're in close proximity with the righteous the moment before. It's not talking about taking them away somewhere in the sky. And that's where your... I think where the confusion is. No, I don't believe that Matthew 24 is talking about the rapture. I believe it's about the judgment of the wicked. So I see where your confusion was. You've always heard from other people that those who are taken refers to the raptured people. And then I surprised you by saying, "No, they're the ones who are killed." So you thought, "Oh, the raptured people are killed." But that's a... no, they're not the raptured people. They're the people who are not saved, we're talking about, not the raptured. So I understand your confusion. I don't know if that makes it any clearer. Do you understand what I'm saying now?
Nick: Anyway, yeah, I'm here because all my life, Steve, I am waiting for the rapture to come. I'm waiting for the Lord Jesus all my life. And all my life I believe when the Jesus coming for his church, in Greek they call it harpage. Harpage ekklesias means the rapture of the church. So those they're going up, in my opinion, and I don't know like many things you know please forgive me, those they're going up, they're going to be saved.
Steve Gregg: Well, yes, I agree too. But the passage you're talking about doesn't mention anyone going up. That's just the point. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 17 does mention people going up. It says that the dead in Christ shall rise first, and then those who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet them in the air. Those people are going up at the rapture. I agree with you. I'm waiting for the rapture too. I'm waiting for Christ too. When Christ comes, he'll judge the world and he'll rapture the church. Those things are said to happen at the coming of Christ. And like yourself, all my life I've been waiting for the coming of Christ. Although I will say it doesn't matter whether he comes in my lifetime or not, because I'll see him when I die and my death will certainly happen in my lifetime. So either by him coming or my dying within my lifetime, I'm going to see Jesus and that's the important thing. But the problem is, when it talks about one shall be taken and the other left, no one is mentioned as going up. There's no mention of going up there. The passage is not talking about the rapture. It's not talking about anyone going up. So you can still hope in the rapture. I do. I'm just saying that verse isn't about that. It's about judgment. I appreciate your call. I'm sorry if it confuses you. I don't like to bring confusion, but I realize that when you've heard one thing and it's kind of ingrained, then you hear something very different. It can be confusing until you sort it out. God bless you too, brother. God bless you, Nick. I've got to take a break here. You're listening to the Narrow Path. Our website is thenarrowpath.com. We've got tons of resources there. They're all free. Just check it out, thenarrowpath.com. I'm going to take a break. We have another half hour coming. So don't go away. I'll be back in 30 seconds. Welcome back to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we're live for another half hour taking your calls. All our lines are full so I won't bother giving out the phone number now. Just enjoy other people's calls for the time being. Our website, as I mentioned earlier, is thenarrowpath.com and there's an app also that gives you full access to everything: the radio show, the website, all the YouTube channels, things like that. You can put it on your phone or your iPad or whatever, but you don't get it from the App Store and you don't get it from Google Play. You get it from your browser on your device. So if you've got an iPhone, you go to Safari. If you have an Android, you might go to Google. And you go just like you're going to any website on your browser and it's thenarrowpath.app. thenarrowpath.app. You go there in your browser, you'll receive instructions how to download that onto your device and you'll have access to everything that you could possibly want from our website right there on your device at thenarrowpath.app on your browser. Follow instructions from there. All right, we're going to talk next to Michael in Inglewood, California. Hi Michael, welcome.
Michael: Thank you Steve. I have a question I've been wanting to ask you for a while and that is: If someone were to get baptized and then they had hands laid on them, how would they know if they were filled with the baptism with the Holy Spirit or filled with the Holy Spirit if they don't speak in tongues?
Steve Gregg: Well, it's interesting because when hands were laid on me to be baptized in the Spirit, I didn't speak in tongues. I thought I would because people talked about that a lot. People said that happened to them and I saw that in many cases in the Bible it happened to people that way, though we don't read that it happened in every case. So I mean, I was, I have to say I was kind of expecting something more dramatic to happen than did and it made me wonder, did I miss it? Did it not happen to me? And then I realized that I'm not basing my Christian life based on feelings or events or things that seem to happen. I live my life by faith and Jesus said, "If earthly fathers know how to give good gifts to their children, how much more will your heavenly father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him?" And I took that very seriously. And that's of course in Luke chapter 11 verse 13. And when I didn't speak in tongues, and by the way, months later I did eventually speak in tongues. But for some time I didn't and I thought, "Well, maybe it didn't happen." Then I just in my mind I just recalled the Bible says if you ask the Father for the Holy Spirit he'll give it to you. And I knew I was sincere. Of course, there are things you can sometimes ask for things and not receive them because your prayers are not very sincere, your heart's not really ready for it, you're not in the place you should be, you're not praying with faith or whatever. But at that particular point in my life I was definitely very ready for that and I was ready to place my faith strongly in what the word of God said. So though I didn't have the vision of things happening that people said they saw happen when they did it, or I didn't hear things happen or feel things happen, I've never really been one to live my life by feelings. I mean, I have feelings, but I think I was well instructed from my youth that we go by what the word of God says, not by what we feel or think. So I remember, though I didn't speak in tongues, I remember thinking, "Well, Jesus said those who ask the Father for the Spirit, he'll give it to them." And so I said, "Okay, I'm asking. I'll receive that right now." And again, nothing visible changed and I left the room without any outward evidence that anything had changed at all. But something did because God did fulfill his promise. And I will say when I left the room, I can't tell you that I had some kind of a describable feeling and I have a hard time explaining this to people because it was so interior. But it was an awareness. It was an awareness just like you're aware of the temperature in the room, or maybe that you're aware that somebody else is in the room with you though you're not looking at them and hearing them talk. They're just sitting there and you know they're there. There was a sense of God's presence that is rather impossible to describe. But one thing I can say, he was real to me in a way that I had not sensed his reality before. I knew that he was with me not just as a matter of theology. Now see, I'd been a Baptist, I was converted as a child and I believed the Bible all my life, but I knew some of these things as a matter of theology and it was at that point that I knew these things by personal awareness. The ideas weren't new to me. It was a new awareness. The ideas were old and theologically set long before that time. But when I read the Bible, it wasn't, I mean, I always believed the Bible, but from after that time when I read the Bible, it was like God was speaking to me in those pages. And it's not like I ever doubted before that the Bible was the word of God. I knew that as a point of faith. But it was more real. I mean, it was like I was hearing it from God's mouth and explaining it to me and things like that, which was an amazing thing to me. I think the most striking thing though was that I had not really been a particularly loving person. I was kind of selfish and stuff. I mean, I did love God and I believed in him, but I was not one that you would describe as a particularly loving person. But that really, really changed. I mean, I just felt like I loved everybody. I felt like I'd die for anybody who needed it. I really did. I mean, I really felt that. And that was 56 years ago. And I wouldn't describe my life as different than that. That is, in the 56 years since then, I haven't really gone backward in that respect as far as I know. So the fruit of the Spirit is much more indicative than any gifts of the Spirit. Gifts of the Spirit can be faked. People can fake tongues. They can fake prophecy. They can fake any of the gifts of the Spirit and there are charlatans who do so. In fact, the devil himself can fake those things. So I believe in the gifts of the Spirit, but gifts of the Spirit, you know, they're not always... you still have to discern where they're coming from when you have them. But tongues is a gift. But fruit of the Spirit is that which is generated by the Spirit in your character. And if you find that now you love people, not in the sense that I just feel warm feelings toward them, though that might be a part of it too. But that you just feel like you are as concerned about them as you are about yourself. You love your neighbor as you love yourself is another way of putting that. That you want to do to people exactly what you'd want them to do to you and nothing worse and nothing different. That you would die for somebody. Jesus said, "Greater love has no one than this, than that they die for their friends." And I really felt that. And I will say this, that my feelings after I got baptized in the Spirit had their ups and downs because feelings do. Feelings have very little to do with whether you're filled with the Spirit, I suppose. But just like anyone else, I had my excited times and my not so excited times. But whenever I was maybe in a lower spot, I'd say, "Well, I wonder if I'm still filled with the Spirit." And I'd have to ask myself, "Well, is the fruit there? Do I love people?" And I literally asked myself on many occasions in my late teen years and in later years: "Is there anyone I know that I would not die for?" And I couldn't think of anyone. I could think of people who weren't very good friends or who were unattractive people or who were my enemies. I thought, "You know, I'd still... I'd go and see Jesus instead of them to save their life if I could." And I still think that's a real test that people can ask. I mean, if you want to take your spiritual temperature, don't ask yourself how many good vibes you get when you're thinking about Jesus. Ask yourself, "Would I die for somebody?" Because that's the mark of love, and love is the mark of being a Christian, Jesus said. And love is the fruit of the Spirit, and the fruit of the Spirit is the way you know if you're filled with the Spirit or not. So I just say, you know, if you had hands laid on you, you asked God to fill you with the Spirit, you didn't speak in tongues. Well, okay, that's fine. Do you love people? Are you more Christ-like than you were before? I mean, read the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5 verses 22 and 23 and say, "Does this describe my life, my inclinations, the driving force of my life? Are these descriptions of who I really am?" If so, there's the mark that you are filled with the Spirit because the fruit of the Spirit has basically become the description of who you are. I appreciate your call, Michael. I hope that helps. All right, let's talk to James in Manhattan, New York. Hi, James, welcome.
James: Yes, hello, Steve. How are you doing? What do you think about Revelation 3:14? Can you describe that to me, please? I'll take my call off the air. Thank you.
Steve Gregg: Well, okay, before you leave, please, I'm going to need to know what it is you want to know about it. It says, "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.'" Are you wondering about that last line, the beginning of the creation of God? Be glad to talk about that. Thanks for your call. Yeah, when Jesus describes himself as the beginning of the creation of God, this has led many people, Jehovah's Witnesses for example, to include Jesus among the things that are created. Now, if you don't know about this theological controversy, it led to the Nicene Council in the 4th century and ended up with a formal statement solving the problem. But in the early centuries of the church, there were those Christians who believed that Jesus is God, which is what I believe the Bible teaches: God in the flesh. And also there were Christians who believed he was the first created being like the angels, only higher. That he was the most exalted, the most important, the most high-ranking of created beings, but still the first created being. Not God, not a created being himself... I mean, I should say not the Creator, but one who was created. Now, they believe that Jesus was created first, but then through Jesus, God created everything else. So they do give Christ credit for being instrumental in the creation of everything other than himself, but they don't believe that he was self-existent like God. They believe that he was created by God and had a beginning. Now, one of the verses that they like very much to prove that particular point, and if you deal with Jehovah's Witnesses or maybe you are one, this is a verse they'll always bring up. It says that Jesus said he's the beginning of the creation of God. Now, does this mean that when God began to create, the first thing he created was Jesus and then he made the rest? Well, what does the word beginning mean? The word is arke. The chief, or the first, or the inauguration, or whatever. It could refer to Jesus being created before everything else, or that he is the one who is the source of the creation of God. He's the one through whom the whole creation of God came about, not that he is himself created, but that he is the one who did the creating. He's the source of the creation of God, the beginning of it, the one who caused it to begin. And that is what I think Christian theology has come to believe about that and what I believe about that. Now, in favor of that also, we have Colossians chapter 1, which says that Jesus in verse 15, "is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." Now, the firstborn of all creation has made some people say, "Well, he was the first created being. Of all the creation he was the firstborn." Well, wait a minute. No, no. The rest of the creation wasn't born at all. He's born. He's the firstborn. The creation isn't the next born. The creation is being created, which is different than being born. I can create a statue, but I give birth to family members. I mean, being born by somebody is different than being created by somebody. And so the question is, what does it mean that he's the firstborn of the creation of God? It doesn't mean that the rest of the creation of God has been born. However, the Bible does indicate that the whole of creation is going to undergo a renovation, which is analogous to Christ's resurrection from the dead. That is, Christ rose from the dead into a new creation. And the whole earth, the whole creation, Paul says in Romans 8, is also going to be renewed into a new creation. Christ first. He's the firstborn from the dead. And the creation likewise will someday be in a similar way born from the dead. It'll be freed from the curse. It'll be... death will be removed and only life will remain. The resurrection of Christ is not seen as a singular thing. It is seen as the first thing. He's also called... well, he's called the firstborn from the dead, he's called the firstfruits of those who slept over in 1 Corinthians 15. His resurrection is the beginning of a new order. He's the first to come out of death and be the firstborn into that new order. The rest of creation will also be born into that new order when he comes back, according to Romans and according to it would appear Revelation 21 verses 1 and 2, probably Peter seems to be speaking of that in 2 Peter chapter 3 when he talks about how when Jesus comes, it's going to be... the heavens will be dissolved and the earth will be burned up and the elements will melt with a fervent heat. And he says, "We look for new creation, a new heavens, new earth." And so the whole creation's going to undergo that change when Jesus comes back. We have tasted of that by being born again through his resurrection, although we will experience physical renovation in the same way that he did. But he's the first. That's a whole process that's part of the New Covenant reality. It's a restoration of what was lost in the fall. And God's going to restore the whole creation. Christ, having been dead, was restored into that new creation in glorified form, immortal and so forth. And he's the firstborn into that. Now, why would I say that we should understand firstborn in Colossians 1:15 to mean firstborn from the dead? Well, because Paul actually says it that way three verses later in Colossians 1:18. He says Christ is the head of the body of the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he may have the preeminence. So he's the firstborn in verse 15. He clarifies in verse 18: He's the firstborn from the dead. And the whole of creation will eventually undergo a similar birth from its present groaning state into a glorified state just as Jesus already has. In the fifth verse of Revelation 1, Jesus says that he is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler over the kings of the earth. So again, he's the firstborn from the dead, he's the firstfruits of those who slept. It means that his resurrection was the first. He's the first to enter into this realm of the new creation, which will eventually encompass the whole creation. So he's the firstborn of all the creation in this respect. That's how I understand that. And it has nothing to do with his origin in the eternal past. It has to do with his resurrection and what that means in terms of the whole creation following him in that way. All right, let's talk to Kay in California. Hi, Kay, welcome.
Kay: Thank you. I'm calling about Romans chapter 9 verse 5. And the four versions of Bibles that I have seem to have different shadings on the question: Is Christ over all and is Christ God? And when you get the NIV, it sounds like both, but the RSV makes it sound like Christ is separate from God, and the King James kind of waffles. The New American Standard I like. It says that Christ, who is over all, God blessed forever. But some of the other translations put a period between Christ and God. So I'm wondering if you could tell me what the Greek says. Thank you.
Steve Gregg: Okay, be glad to talk about that. As far as the period goes or punctuation, this is the problem with many translations and the thing is the Greek doesn't contain the punctuation. This is something the translators have to guess: Was there supposed to be a period here? Sometimes I have to wonder: Is there supposed to be a parenthesis here? And the translators don't always agree on it. I'm looking at the Greek text, Romans chapter 9 verse 5, and here's what it says in the interlinear: "And from whom the Christ according to the flesh, he being over all, God blessed to the ages." Okay, now if it says he's the... if it means he's over all, period, and then just the statement "God blessed to the ages," that's awkward because "God blessed to the ages" is not a sentence. Why would there be a whole sentence that just means "God blessed"? If he said "God is blessed to the ages" or whatever, first of all, that would be true, it would also be rather irrelevant to his train of thought here. He's talking about Christ. He's talking about how Israel had received the covenants, they had received the promises, they had received the worship of God and the tabernacle. And from them came Christ, who is over all. And then he says, "God blessed forever." Well, yeah, God is blessed forever. He doesn't say "God is blessed forever." He says "God blessed forever," which strikes me as another clause describing Christ. Now, the RSV you mentioned does not make it sound like it's talking about Christ. The RSV, many people have had complaints against the RSV since it first came out, that it represents a much more liberal Christianity. It was not put out by quite such conservative Christians as some of the versions before it was. And it does seem that the RSV translators are not wishing to state that Jesus is God over all. But Paul does seem to state that. I think again we can't go with punctuation since the Greek doesn't have punctuation. But the wording doesn't really allow that the clause beginning with the word God, blessed forever, is somehow a new sentence because it, frankly, it isn't a sentence. It doesn't have a verb. And you might say, "Well, blessed is a verb." No, in this case, it's an adjective. It should say "God is blessed forever." "Is" would be the verb. Blessed, in if we say "I'm blessed" or he blessed... Melchizedek blessed Abraham. Blessed then is a verb. But when it says that "God is blessed forever," blessed is an adjective there. And but the word "is" is missing. So you don't have a complete sentence there. So I think that the RSV is simply trying to avoid making strong statements affirming the deity of Christ. And I'm on the side of those that say this is calling Jesus God. I'm not an expert in the Greek, but I can see what's there and what's not there. So I'm going to go with the scholars who see it that way. Thanks for your call. Let's see, Mary in North Carolina, welcome to the Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
Mary: Hey Steve, thanks for taking my call. I guess I would just start off by saying that I am amillennial and I don't believe in unconditional eternal security. But I go to Baptist churches. I've been going to Baptist churches since I got born again seven years ago. So you're saying you're out of step with their theology. Yeah, a little bit. The things that I kind of have questions about is, you know, they teach penal substitutionary atonement and they try to use Romans 3:25 to support it and I just see where it says that our previous sins were committed. And then they also teach something about the Bema Seat and I have no idea what the heck they're talking about and I just assume it must be dispensational or something. Do you enlighten me a little bit on it?
Steve Gregg: Bema is used in the New Testament, but they have their own way of looking at it as dispensationalists. As far as penal substitution, I have no problem with penal substitution. I accept it, but I also accept the other views of the atonement. And I do think that Romans 3:25, I've looked at that a lot of different ways and I think it probably does mean that Jesus' death was an atonement for sins committed before he died. Previously committed. And I think the reason I think that is, Paul wouldn't have to say that Jesus set forth as a atonement for sins previously committed since Paul would not wish necessarily to distinguish between our past sins or any future ones we may commit. It'd just be more economical to say "for our sins." He's set forth as a propitiation for our sins. That would include our past ones, our present ones, our future ones. The fact that he talks about previously committed sins, especially when he says "at this time he set forth Christ," I think the "previous" means before Jesus came. There were sins committed before Jesus came and Jesus was at this time set forth to cover those sins previously committed, previous to him coming. That's my thought. Now, the Bema Seat of Christ. Paul did say we must all stand before the Bema Seat of Christ. The Bema is from the Greek culture, as I understand it. It's the reward seat of the judges at the Olympics. When the runners run their race and win a prize, the judges are in the Bema Seat. And they like to say, "Well, when we're raptured before the tribulation and millennium and all that stuff that they teach, we're not... we're going to stand before the judgment seat of God, but it's going to be just rewards." "Whereas later, after the millennium, when the wicked are going to the judgment, they'll be judged concerning their fate eternally." So they would say we're already of course saved and so the Bema Seat is just going to be where we get our rewards. Now, I have no trouble with that, but they distinguish it from the great white throne judgment at the end of the millennium. And I, as far as I'm concerned, the judgment seat's the judgment seat. I think the great white throne judgment seat is the Bema Seat. And I do believe that saved people will receive rewards there and some people who are not Christians, they'll be condemned there. So the dispensationalists like to differentiate between the Bema and the great white throne. I'm out of time. Sorry to say. You're listening to the Narrow Path. Our website, thenarrowpath.com. Let's talk again tomorrow. God bless you.